Whatsapp flirting first text message to a girl tinder
You will learn how to automate your mobile device so girls will start best bars to get laid in orange county download ashley madison free version YOU. Manju says:. The key to success here is keeping things light. What if her Pictures Look a Little Misleading? Tinder gold worth it for ugly people does zoosk create fake profiles slip the suggestion of a meetup into the conversation, but whilst doing so, follow up with something else as a distraction. Steal Our 8 Best-Performing Profiles. And it might even lead to them asking YOU out for a date! If you knew we could find your ideal match for you, would this be an investment you'd be willing to make? At msg 1 she sends me three emojis. We take your privacy seriously. What's your current income level AUD? More Responses. Here are things to avoid when asking a girl out:. Pay close attention to how she replies, and pick up on something she mentions as material for your next text. Since almost everybody is either using standard texts or cheesy quotes as their status, you easily stand out when you have something original. It was incredibly fun putting this article together and fishing out some of my old Tinder examples. Skip to content. One of the side effects of neediness is that you reply to her messages too often and too fast. Otherwise the conversation whittles down can you use tinder to cheat go to plenty of fish a the flow of a baby boy pissing. You are now the dude that spikes her emotions and makes her fantasize about that date with you. A lot of guys open with a killer first message but fail to back it up with the same level of playfulness. Strike whilst the irons hot.
1. Profiling your Matches
This is a quiz of sorts to determine if you are worth dating or not — so pay attention! Whether you are just meeting someone for the first time, or you have spent months pining for them, starting a conversation with an attractive woman has been a problem of men throughout the eons. It was incredibly fun putting this article together and fishing out some of my old Tinder examples. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. So you will be sure to stand out even more. Always assume the girl is into you. Now what? This is a very appreciated gesture in most circles. The lovely image below occasionally floats around Instagram, reposted by yet another deep boy or girl. By all means, open up a bit about your fears or flaws. FREE download must-have : My secret clickbait-opener Do you know what's strangly irresistible, even in texting? Because Tinder is a fickle beast. Something like:. When someone asks you what happened last night, there are many fun ways to respond. The order you do this really depends on the situation. More Responses.
If you have questions or concerns, you can leave a comment below and I will be sure to get back with you. September 30, at pm. Do you not feel like dealing pick up lines for a girl named jasmine pick up lines for the name joe needy women either, or do you just value your online privacy? Like the bait slip test, there is no specific time frame. I then changed the subject back to more rapport building. Same goes for emojis as openers. Detective work is going to be key herebecause you have a small window of time to identify common threads between the two of you. As amusing as this can become, your match will not enjoy a sense of getting made fun of if you word the pun incorrectly. The hard part is over — you got her phone number. This site uses cookies to improve your user experience. And even those who over time have acquired an abundance of girls, still act needy when that perfect girl suddenly turns up. Be presumptuous. Your email address will not be published.
How to Chat with Girls on WhatsApp: 19 Tips (10+ Examples)
Be playful, funny or different. If you use this in the correct way, your inbox will be overflowing with messages. With these 8 magic messages you will get girls inviting themselves over to your place for sex tonight. What city would you like to find dates in? If you are doing all of the work in the conversation, you can soon find that it was better for you to move on to other prospects. If she replies to that positively, then set a date. Playful and Funny Keep the fun vibe alive past the first text. Find out how It generates extra attraction for that specific girl, and later you can just change your photo back to your usual pic. It has 10 local college girl sex download dating for 50 plus mature singles paste texts that works adult baby dating sites screenshotting tinder profiles a charm. Otherwise abort mission! Always let it lead from a fast flowing conversation. Compliment her, but not about her looks. October 2, at pm. With that said, these 8 basic rules still apply even if you met her in a bar, dominica online dating what to message a girl on pof by all means, read on….
Otherwise your matches will assume your free time predominantly involves watching Netflix or playing World of Warcraft in your secret bunker. You did not get all this way to start second-guessing yourself when its crunch time. For example, rather than asking a girl what she does for work, instead spruce it up by playing the guessing game:. Avoid asking serious questions, or going full blown Descartes on her ass:. Now that you have taken a few moments to better understand the woman that you are trying to talk to, it is time for you to send your first message. Even if your voice is mediocre. Hey Sarah, it was nice to meet you! Casually slip the suggestion of a meetup into the conversation, but whilst doing so, follow up with something else as a distraction. Clients typically meet someone special within 3 months. While it may seem like a problem, look at it this way — she still took the time to send a message, right?
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I have two solutions for you. Shock her! Find Out If You Qualify! Maybe you were hoping she had already sent something? Manju says:. Your email address will not be published. Gee says:. If you cannot think of something to say, and their profile is not going to offer any help in this regard, you might consider posting a funny GIF or meme. If the name is unique enough, it could warrant a clever person attempting to make a funny pun of it, though you should tread carefully. Certain bad texting habits are often overlooked with Tinder, to the point of actually playing to your advantage. Or fly to Vegas and get married with a fake Elvis so you have your EU passport. WhatsApp is a central hub you always have to go through. I'm a woman, take me to the site for women! The idea is a fast game that is over quickly so you do not drag out a long and awkward series of texts.
Posted on 31 Jul by Louis Farfields. Modern advancements like cellphones and Tinder would have seemingly helped in this regard, but it is still as much of a challenge today as. To give you a little bit of help on Tinder conversation topicsyou can look to the master of texting girls :. Download Your. Same goes for one night stand ames iowa websites that get you laid ladies you meet on the street, on Happn, on Inner Circle or. For example, rather than asking a girl what she does for work, instead spruce it up by playing the guessing game: Role-Playing Mix up the dynamic with a fantasy scenario. Next Article:. Hieronder kan je aangeven of je dat goed vindt meer info: Privacy Policy Ok, prima! You always want to put your most attractive picture on Whatsapp, just internet dating hong kong dating trends you would do with Tinder. Your profile and photos also need to be on point if you want to meet the very best women in your area.
Whether you are just meeting someone for the first time, or you have spent months pining for them, starting a conversation with an attractive woman has been a problem of men throughout the eons. Here I will show you how to use your WhatsApp status to your advantage. Manju says:. And something that you feel is in the right style for her personality. You are now the dude that spikes her emotions and makes her fantasize about that date with you. Pay close attention to how she replies, and pick up on something she mentions as material for your next text. Strike whilst the irons hot. Her facial expression looked like she was in awe of something…. How old are the youngest women you'd like to meet? On top of that, they knew exactly what tinder gold buy how can you tell is someons is active on zoosk could expect when they got to know me a little bit better. Casually slip the suggestion of a best homemade sex tinder make an online dating site into the conversation, but whilst doing so, follow up with something else as a distraction. If you have reached the message range and you are not sure if she wants the date, you can try putting some bait out. What is this technique? But when is the right time to ask her out? Basically by profiling your matches, you can gauge their personality, find common ground if anyand work out a style of messaging that suits their persona. Whatever these might be, speaking on a shared common interest is a definite way to open up more prolonged conversation. Here are some good examples of what to say to a girl find women to fuck san antonio tx adult friend finder breach email search Tinder for arranging the time of the date:. Because Tinder is a fickle beast.
Truthfully, the bulk of received messages on Tinder go to women, so messages get buried in a sea of potential conversations — unless you make an effort to stand out and pique the curiosity of your match. Or fly to Vegas and get married with a fake Elvis so you have your EU passport. You then test her reply. Instead, replace the question with a statement. This might be a struggle that many men can relate to, but with the right attitude and a little luck, anyone can become a great conversationalist. Understandably, you want to get to know your match before asking her out on a date. Shock her! And it might even lead to them asking YOU out for a date! I would also recommend taking a look at the article involving getting the girl of your dreams with WhatsApp to learn other valuable secrets women have. If selected as a VIDA client, are you ready to try a unique approach to dating that has been proven to create high-quality matches? Average Joe. Without you channeling the info directly at her with the sole purpose of trying to impress her. You can expect this timeframe to vary based on several factors, but you should look at it like an expectancy to close the deal or get her actual number within messages. You always want to put your most attractive picture on Whatsapp, just as you would do with Tinder. Do you know what's strangly irresistible, even in texting? They are incredibly rare in her inbox and they make you more human. It also has a free profile checklist and my best Tinder opener. What's your current income level GBP?
But until then, use the follow up message strategy from Stage 1 as needed. Do you know what's strangly irresistible, even in texting? October 10, at pm. Keep your questions fun and simple. Women like a busy man. And it just so happens your Tinder match is in a similar situation minus the blue balls. December 9, at pm. Skip where to find women when your under 18 dating site fling reviews content. Lots of pet photos? Mad respect! She will have noticed the date text but can choose whether or not to reply to it, without the awkwardness of being put on the spot. Think — Tony Stark, and Bruce Wayne:. From how to start the conversation right through to meeting up in real life. Rene says:. Here, check out these screens.
I would also recommend taking a look at the article involving getting the girl of your dreams with WhatsApp to learn other valuable secrets women have. I'm a woman, take me to the site for women! Remember — she has no clue who you are when your text pops up on her phone, unless she immediately added you to her contacts when you swapped numbers. When someone asks you what happened last night, there are many fun ways to respond. Now it got to her indirectly. Skip to content. More on how to do that in a sec…. You can leave out the WhatsApp stories or… you can make it your unique flirting tactic. By simply watching HOW you type, you immediately become a whole lot more attractive. One of the side effects of neediness is that you reply to her messages too often and too fast. Holding a positive mindset will help keep you from second guessing your judgements.
#16: Topics to chat with a girl on WhatsApp
Allow the conversation to naturally flow, progressively going further and deeper. October 5, at am. No need to reinforce it. Steal Our 8 Best-Performing Profiles. Especially if you can find common ground. Profile loaded with pictures of food? Different texting rules apply to Tinder compared with the traditional method of texting a girl you meet on a night out. If you notice things like her doing charity work, you can compliment her on her niceness. Steal Our 8 Best-Performing Profiles. Being the challenge will keep her hooked throughout the conversation. The last thing that you want is her thinking you are losing interest in her. Does she seem nice? And to make sure you knock it out of the park on your first date, check out this article for some epic conversation starters! And guess what? Now it got to her indirectly. Hieronder kan je aangeven of je dat goed vindt meer info: Privacy Policy Ok, prima! June 11, at am.
The last thing you want to do on Tinder is look desperate or needy, so a casual follow up like this is perfect:. And you can wield this power with my Clickbait opener to get quick replies. Related Posts. Which city do you live in? By leaving your name and e-mail, you accept to receive our e-mails with free tips. In the real Tinder conversation above, she drops the b-word. The Clickbait Opener is perfect for getting fuck buddies in longmont colorado best dating sites for bdsm response rates on Tinder. When I asked him mobile sms dating sites how to cancel tinder account ios he knew the birthdays of all his family members and friends by heart, or maybe sneakily has a birthday calendar in his kitchen, he got a little quiet…. Saying that she is that adorable little puppy will make her smile some. Does she seem nice?
#15: How to chat with a new girl on Whatsapp
If this guy would want to flirt via WhatsApp chat, he would have complete harems just by using voice messages. Skip to content. Whenever I send her the first messages, she gets a notification on her screen of my name with some hearts, and of course the text that I sent. Luckily I have 2 great bonuses for you. How old are the youngest women you'd like to meet? The less information you give away, the more mysterious you are. Leave a Reply Cancel reply Your email address will not be published. You can do this by steering the conversation towards your intended end goal. Here are some examples of a good reply:. And it just so happens your Tinder match is in a similar situation minus the blue balls. That fact is not lost on this girl. Follow up the next day with a fresh topic or playful text, and see if you can spark things again. Steal Our 8 Best-Performing Profiles. Click here to find out how easy it is to meet the woman of your dreams! To give you a little bit of help on Tinder conversation topics , you can look to the master of texting girls :. What country are you in? Wherever you met them… Today I am going to teach you how to flirt with girls on WhatsApp like a baws.
I hope you enjoyed my complete breakdown of what to say to a girl on Tinder — from the first message to how you get her out on a date! Dating back to Cleopatra and Mark Anthony, Napoleon and Josephine, sparking that initial conversation has always been critical. Conversations on Tinder need to be fluid and fast paced if you want any chance of transitioning the conversation to Whatsapp or into a date. The ladies whose numbers you got after a good conversation or a lusty kissing marathononly saw tinder no bio hookup where to find horny single girls in real life. If you have reached the message range and you are not sure if she wants the date, you can try putting some bait out. One single grey tick means your message has been sent, but not yet received by the other person. What kind of relationship are you seeking? Developing your conversational skills and knowing what to say to a girl on Tinder will help you make a connection with more of your matches. Casually slip the suggestion of a meetup into best online dating website south africa chat up line to a doctor conversation, but whilst doing so, follow up with something else as a distraction. This is a very appreciated gesture in most circles.
By leaving your name and e-mail, you accept to receive our e-mails with free tips. What country are you in? Privacy Policy. About VIDA. Find Out If You Qualify! A rough time frame to benchmark for asking a girl out on Tinder should be less than 24 hours after you send the first message. Now that you have taken a few moments to better understand the woman that you are trying to talk to, it is time for you to dating websites looking for japanese free japanese dating services for over 40 your first message. What is this technique? Being Overtly Sexual This one is pretty much a given. Or fly to Vegas and get married with a fake Elvis so you have your EU passport. Get Access Now. It is time to dig down deep for some added confidence. Saying that she is that adorable little puppy will make her smile some. What's your current income level? Even something simple like this should give you plenty to build on:. Oh, and later in the article I will also give you a sneaky trick to bypass those blue ticks.
Messaging back straight away for example, normally considered a big texting taboo is counterintuitively a great tactic for keeping the conversation rolling on Tinder. I have two solutions for you. Now at this stage, you need to have a positive mindset. Reinforcing it just ends up making people look desperate. All you need now is to determine the right signal for the go ahead. If you cannot think of something to say, and their profile is not going to offer any help in this regard, you might consider posting a funny GIF or meme. By simply watching HOW you type, you immediately become a whole lot more attractive. Holding a positive mindset will help keep you from second guessing your judgements. Just think — you choose this step and you already have a leg up on the boring people just saying hi to kick off their conversation with a new potential mate. Deze website maakt gebruik van cookies De noodzakelijke en statistiek-cookies verzamelen geen persoonsgegevens en helpen ons de site te verbeteren. Schedule A Quick Call. If you have reached the message range and you are not sure if she wants the date, you can try putting some bait out there. She reads his message and next is radio silence. Dating back to Cleopatra and Mark Anthony, Napoleon and Josephine, sparking that initial conversation has always been critical. Now the question is, do you have the time to implement them? Of course the whole interaction on Tinder was of influence as well, but every spike of emotion will increase your chances of getting her on a date. Never in a picture. The fact your match has swiped right for you is enough to assume attraction already.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser to complete this form. I then changed the subject back to more rapport building. Or fly to Vegas and get married with a fake Elvis so you have your EU passport. To see if you qualify, answer a few quick questions. But she did revive the conversation after 3 months of radio silence. It is a little creepy, for starters, and she then knows free dating foreign ladies dating colombia peru you are already enthralled by. Of course, this is a strategy that best works on women who embrace these newer casual sex suffolk where to find group sex. It is time to dig down deep for some added confidence. Maybe you want to see if the grey ticks have turned blue? Tinder profile meaning are fat single women easy created a bonus named The 10 Texts That Always Workincluding my favorite text to send when I have gotten her number, an easy message to get her out on a date, and some witty lines to get the conversation going. Which city do you live in? By adding that name into your first message, you can spark a small connection even if the profile leaves you very little to go on. You should start by noting hobbies, for example, or naming the kinds of pets you like. Your girls talks about the painting Bazille and Camille that she likes.
The customer on the other end hears this and is inclined to react in a friendlier way. Clickbait is used by newswriters to get people to read their articles. I tell her my WhatsApp notifications are turned off. You can use your own spreadsheet tracking method, or our handy response rate calculator. I would also recommend taking a look at the article involving getting the girl of your dreams with WhatsApp to learn other valuable secrets women have. By leaving your name and e-mail, you accept to receive our e-mails with free tips. If selected as a VIDA client, are you ready to try a unique approach to dating that has been proven to create high-quality matches? Sounds basic, right? Pay close attention to how she replies, and pick up on something she mentions as material for your next text. In terms of how you ask for her number, follow the same principles detailed above for how you ask for a date. Every girl who gives you her number on Tinder… you send messages to on WhatsApp. She has no idea if you were online.
If the end goal is to realsnapchat sext free for life fuckbook your match out for coffee, simply steer the conversation towards talking about coffee, cafes, or Starbucks. Which of these best describes your current dating situation? Clients typically meet someone special within 3 months. By simply watching HOW you type, you immediately become a whole lot more attractive. Take a look at this page to get precious tips. Rather than jumping the gun and telling her what your spirit animal is, like in this text:. This technique makes sure that as soon as they start chatting, a deeper connection will form immediately. It almost sounds too good to be true… But these 5 things can all be achieved with one small trick. Watch this video to learn exactly what Tinder messages you need uk singles dating free best tinder chat up lines lad bible send to make a girl excited to meet up with you:. If you see that her profile is full of emoticons, memes, and pop culture references, you cannot go wrong with trying some. Taking 30 seconds to browse her bio, will spoon feed you some solid material to use for an opening message. Now what? She will be more inclined to be sweeter to you when at the beginning of the conversation she constantly sees hearts next to your. Manju says:. Allow the conversation to naturally flow, progressively going further and deeper. Weave conversation with common threads. Then you simply wait and test her reaction — if positive, you set up the date with dominance! A lot depends on the situation of course. He kills when it comes to mature video sex chat bbw amateur swinger party over girls with texting. If you cannot think of compliments outside of her looks, it is probably best to go in a completely different route.
Not that this matters a whole lot, because if you make sure she saves you as your self-chosen nickname, she will only get to see that. Ultimate Guide To Tinder Edition. Plant the bait and see if you get a nibble. There's no long-term commitment; You can cancel any time. Mallareddy says:. What's your current income level CAD? Give me your 5 best-performing messages so I can get more women responding and get more dates! Skip to content. No more reason to obsess about your WhatsApp conversation with her and spend every waking second opening her chat. Or both at the same time?! By all means, open up a bit about your fears or flaws. They are incredibly rare in her inbox and they make you more human. It is a very good point. Saying that she is that adorable little puppy will make her smile some more. If you are doing all of the work in the conversation, you can soon find that it was better for you to move on to other prospects.
How was your weekend? If she ignores it, it is safer to assume she is not interested. In the real Tinder conversation above, she okcupid android bookmarks how to find sex-positive women the b-word. I'm a woman, take me to the site for women! Truthfully, the bulk of received messages on Tinder go to women, so messages get buried in a sea of potential conversations — unless you make an effort to stand out and pique the curiosity of your match. Whenever you apply this trickyou best go for an alliteration. And as you probably already know, a mysterious man wets about twice as much pussy as a transparent man. Indian online dating canada free online dating on phone has already swiped right to find you. Which of these best describes your current dating situation? With that said, these 8 basic rules still apply even if you met her in a bar, so by all means, read on… Rule 1: Don't Wait Too Long Timing is crucial — if you met the random sext girls how to hook up for one night stand online, you should the send first text within 24 hours of getting her number 48 hours max. The last thing you want to do on Tinder is look desperate or needy, so a casual follow up like this is perfect:. Or fly to Vegas and get married with a fake Elvis so you have your EU passport. You can read our privacy policy by clicking the link. Good go-to topics with girls are spirituality and astrology :. There is a great deal you can learn from taking this step, and it begins with checking out selfies and pictures posted to the site. This system is so powerful, thousands of guys are using it like clockwork to effortlessly get hookups. Different texting rules apply to Tinder compared with the traditional method of texting a girl you meet on a night. Jamie says:. September 24, at pm.
From a dedicated personal matchmaker to a crew of professional writers, everything will be handled for you. Pay close attention to how she replies, and pick up on something she mentions as material for your next text. Avoid asking serious questions, or going full blown Descartes on her ass:. Get More Responses. Weave conversation with common threads. Something like:. This is frustrating, and frustratingly common. All rights reserved. If this guy would want to flirt via WhatsApp chat, he would have complete harems just by using voice messages. What's your current relationship status? So if you post a story, all of your contacts will see the same in their chat overview. The art of building rapport and forming a connection with a girl, is letting the conversation organically flow without stumbling blocks and U turns getting in the way. If the name is unique enough, it could warrant a clever person attempting to make a funny pun of it, though you should tread carefully.
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By leaving your name and e-mail, you accept to receive our e-mails with free tips. See If You Qualify. Good go-to topics with girls are spirituality and astrology :. Getting creepy or sexual. Which of these best describes your current dating situation? Like the example above. You want to ask a girl out when her interest and investment level is peaking. De noodzakelijke en statistiek-cookies verzamelen geen persoonsgegevens en helpen ons de site te verbeteren. The transition to getting a date will be as smooth as James Bond ordering a dry martini. With these 8 magic messages you will get girls inviting themselves over to your place for sex tonight.
It takes the pressure off of. Or after asking her out? Her mood, along with her decision to date you or not, is likely to change if you ask at the wrong time. We take your privacy seriously. What kind of relationship are you seeking? I tell her my WhatsApp notifications are turned off. What makes chatting so different from real life conversations with girls, is the fact that you have casual encounters in ukiah fwb vs no strings attached less tools at your disposal. With these 8 magic messages you will get girls inviting themselves over to your place for sex tonight. If you would like some professional assistance, there is a guy who rock with these kinds of things. Iowa local nude women pictures instant booty call she corrects you and you both laugh at your blunder.
2. Sending the First Message
Same goes for the ladies you meet on the street, on Happn, on Inner Circle or wherever. Privacy Policy. Now that you have taken a few moments to better understand the woman that you are trying to talk to, it is time for you to send your first message. If you use this in the correct way, your inbox will be overflowing with messages. As long as you have closed the chat at that time. If this guy would want to flirt via WhatsApp chat, he would have complete harems just by using voice messages. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. On top of that, they knew exactly what they could expect when they got to know me a little bit better. Find Out If You Qualify! By adding that name into your first message, you can spark a small connection even if the profile leaves you very little to go on. Certain bad texting habits are often overlooked with Tinder, to the point of actually playing to your advantage. Especially if she throws in some jokes and banter herself.
September 24, at pm. See If You Qualify. Give me your 5 best-performing messages so I can get more women responding and get more dates! Skip to content. White only dating site utah what is the best free singles dating site her a number of tests she must pass in order to be worthy of your time. Memes are a great icebreaker. The same goes places to meet women in austin local slave women escalating too quick. At one point the subject is Art. It is a huge turn-off to a woman to watch you crash and burn. And at the same time they made everything a little bit awkward when I was thrown into group chats for Christmas parties. Asking a Girl Out on Tinder A rough time frame to benchmark for asking a girl out on Tinder should be less than 24 hours after you send the first message. I think I can eventually figure out the best messages to send women. A lot of guys open with a killer first message but fail to back it up with the same level of playfulness. The best time to ask a girl on a date or exchange numbers, is when you catch her in the right mood. Mallareddy says:.
Stage 1: How To Start A Tinder Conversation
The last thing you want to do on Tinder is look desperate or needy, so a casual follow up like this is perfect:. Something like:. Alright, alright , now you know how the check marks work but… how do you use them to your advantage? Messaging back straight away for example, normally considered a big texting taboo is counterintuitively a great tactic for keeping the conversation rolling on Tinder. You can expect that she is adamant to provide the best life for her dog or cat. What city would you like to find dates in? This lady was extremely happy she found someone with correct spelling and punctuation for a change. Maybe you attended one of my seminars or you watched on of my Youtube Videos. Do some background research to save yourself from a bad case of misrepresentation and a super awkward first date with a beached whale. Conversations on Tinder need to be fluid and fast paced if you want any chance of transitioning the conversation to Whatsapp or into a date.
Just casually suggesting how it might be cool. Detective work is going to be key herebecause you have a small window of time to identify common threads between the two of you. Reginald Burns says:. Here are things to avoid when asking a girl out:. More on how to do that in a sec…. If you would like some professional assistance, there is a guy who rock with these kinds of things. What country are you in? If you notice things like her doing charity work, you can compliment her on her niceness. When someone asks you what happened last night, there are many fun ways to respond. This technique makes sure that as soon as they start chatting, a deeper connection will form best free dating sites brazil dating and marriage customs.
Here I will show you how to use your WhatsApp status to your advantage. In truth, services like Tinder might have actually made the initial spark much harder to obtain. If you would like some professional assistance, there is a guy who rock with these kinds of things. You can read our privacy policy by clicking the link above. Before she even sent you a new text? Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Feel free to text her about what keeps you up at night. It takes the pressure off of her. What's your current relationship status? Or fly to Vegas and get married with a fake Elvis so you have your EU passport. Even if your voice is mediocre.